they recruit them, leaving the older, sicker seniors in medicare, and every health care economist who looks at it says, over time, what will happen is the traditional medicare system will collapse. and then what you've got is folks like my grandmother at the mercy of the private insurance system precisely at the time that they are most in need of decent health care. so i don't think vouchers are the right way to go. and this is not my -- only my opinion. aarp thinks that the savings that we obtained from medicare bolstered the system, lengthened the medicare trust fund by eight years, benefits were not affected at all, and ironically, if you repeal obama care, and i have become fond of this term, obama care, if you repeal it, what happens is, those seniors right away are going to be paying $600 more in prescription care.

they're now going to be having to pay co-pays for basic checkups that can keep them healthier, and the primary beneficiary of that repeal are insurance companies that are estimated to gain billions of dollars back when they aren't making seniors any healthier. and i don't think that's the right approach when it comes to making sure that medicare is stronger over the long-term. >> we'll talk about, specifically about health care in a moment. but do you support the voucher system, governor? >> what i support is no change for current retirees is and near-retirees to medicare. and the president supports taking $716 billion out of that program. >> what about the vouchers? >> that's number one. >> all right. >> number two is for people coming along that are young. what i'd do to make sure that we can keep medicare in place for them is to allow them either to choose the current medicare

program or a private plan. their choice. they get to choose -- and they'll have at least two plans that will be entirely at no cost to them. so they don't have to pay additional money, no additional $6,000. that's not going to happen. they'll have at least two plans. and by the way, if the government can be as efficient as the private sector and offer premiums that are as low as the private sector, people will be happy to get traditional medicare, or they'll be able to get a private plan. i know my own view is, i'd rather have a private plan. i'd just as soon not having the government telling me what kind of health care i get. i'd rather having a insurance company, if i don't like them, i can get rid of them and get a different insurance company. but people like to make their own choice. and the other thing we have to do for medicare, we have to have the benefits high for those who are low-income, but for high-income people, we're going to have to lower some of the benefits. we have to make sure this plan is there for the long-term. that's the plan i put forward. and by the way, the idea came not even from paul ryan or senator wyden, but it came from bill clinton's chief of staff. this is an idea that's been around a long time. which is saying, hey, let's not see if we can get competition into the medicare world, so that

people can get the choice of different plans at lower cost, better quality. i believe in competition. >> jim, if i can just respond very quickly. first of all, every study has shown that medicare has lower administrative costs than private insurance does, which is why seniors are generally pretty happy with it. and private insurers have to make a profit. nothing wrong with that. that's what they do. and so you've got higher administrative costs, plus profit, on top of that, and if you are going to save any money through what governor romney's proposing, what has to happen is that the money has to come from somewhere. and when you move to a voucher system, you are putting seniors at the mercy of those insurance companies, and over time, if traditional medicare has decayed or fallen apart, then they're stuck. and this is the reason why aarp has said that your plan would weaken medicare, substantially,

and that's why they were supportive of the approach that we took. one last point i want to make. we do have to lower the cost of health care. not just in medicare -- >> in a minute. >> but overall. >> okay. >> that's a big topic. >> i want to get to it. all i want to do, very quickly, before we leave the economy -- >> let's get back to medicare. the president said that the government could provide the service at a lower cost and without a profit. if that's the case then it will always be the best product that people can purchase. >> just a minute, governor. >> my experience is the private sector is typically able to provide a better product at a lower cost. >> can the two of you agree that the voters have a choice, a clear choice between the two of you on medicare? >> absolutely. >> all right. so to finish quickly, briefly on the economy, what is your view about the level of federal regulation of the economy right now? is there too much? and in your case, mr. president,

should there be more? beginning with you, this is not a new two-minute segment. we'll go for a few minutes and then we're going to go to health care. okay? >> regulation is essential. you can't have a free market work if you don't have regulation. as a business person, i had to have -- i needed to know the regulations. i needed them there. you couldn't have people opening up banks in their garage and making loans. you have to have regulations so that you can have an economy work. every free economy has a good regulation. at the same time, regulation can become excessive. >> is it successful now? >> in some places, yes. it could become out of date. what's happening with some of the legislation passed during the president's term, you've seen regulation become excessive and it's hurt the economy. dodd-frank was passed, and it includes provisions that have it telling banks too big to fail.

this is the biggest kiss that's been given to new york banks i've ever seen. this is an enormous boon for them. there have been 122 community and small banks have closed since dodd-frank. there's one example. here's another. >> you want to repeal dodd-frank? >> i would repeal and replace it. you have to have regulation. and there's some parts of dodd-frank that make all the sense in the world. you need transparency, you need to have leverage limits for institutions -- >> here's a specific -- >> let me mention the other one -- >> no, let's not. let's let him respond to this specific on dodd-frank and what the governor just said. >> i think this is a great example. the reason we have been in such a enormous economic crisis was prompted by reckless behavior across the board. it wasn't just on wall street.

you had loan officers that were giving loans and mortgages that really shouldn't have been given, because the folks didn't qualify. you had people who are borrowing money to buy a house that you couldn't afford. you had credit agencies that were stamping these as a-1 great investments when they weren't. but you also had banks making money hand over fifth, churning out products that the bankers themselves didn't even understand in order to make big profits but knowing that it made the entire system vulnerable. so what did we do? we stepped in and had the toughest reforms on wall street since the 1930s. we said, you've got -- banks you've got to raise your capital requirements. you can't engage in some of this risky behavior that is putting main street at risk. we've got to make sure you have a living will so we know how you're going to wind things down if you make a bad bet. in the meantime by the way, we

also made sure that all the help that we provided those banks was paid back every single dime with interest. now, governor romney has said he wants to repeal dodd-frank. and i appreciate and it appears we've got some agreement that a marketplace to work has to have some regulation. but in the past governor romney has said he just wants to repeal dodd-frank. roll it back. so the question is, does anybody out there think that the big problem we had is that there was too much oversight and regulation of wall street? because if you do, then governor romney is your candidate. but that's not what i believe. >> sorry, jim, but that's just not the facts. look, we have to have regulation on wall street. that's why i'd have regulation. but i wouldn't designate five banks as too big to fail and give them a blank check. that's one of the unintended consequences of dodd-frank. we need to get rid of that

provision because it's killing regional and small banks. they're getting hurt. let me mention other regulation in dodd-frank. you're saying we're giving mortgages to people who weren't qualified. that's exactly right. that's one of the reasons for the great financial calamity we had. so dodd-frank correctly says we need to have qualified mortgages. and if you give a mortgage that's not qualified there are big penalties. except they didn't ever go on to define what a qualified mortgage was. >> all right. >> it's been two years. we don't know what a qualified mortgage is yet. so banks are reluctant to make loans, mortgages. try and get a mortgage these days. it's hurt the housing market, because dodd-frank didn't anticipate putting in place the kinds of regulations you have to have. it's not that dodd-frank was always wrong with too much regulation. sometimes they didn't come out with a clear regulation. i will make sure we don't hurt the functioning of our marketplace and our businesses because i want to bring back housing and get good jobs. [ woman ] it's 32 minutes to go time,

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hi there. i'm brooke baldwin. you are watching how the first presidential debate played out in realtime between president obama and mitt romney. we'll take you back to the special coverage in a moment. but first, developing this hour, the president on his way to wisconsin. here he is. home state of the republican vice presidential candidate paul ryan. after making his very first remarks since last night's showdown. >> we believe in a country where hard work pays off and where responsibility's rewarded and everybody's getting a fair shot and doing their fair share and everybody plays by the rules. that's what i'm fighting for. that's why i'm running for a second term as president of the united states and that's why i want your vote. just in to cnn, a source

tells our barbara starr at the pentagon a fbi investigative team has finally made it to the site of last month's deadly attack on the u.s. consulate in libya. the fbi team was stalled for three weeks because of security concerns. that attack killed four americans including u.s. ambassador to libya chris stevens. stay right there. we'll be back at the top of the hour for a full analysis of each man's performance and what happens from here. but now, let me take you back to that debate. >> i think we have another clear difference between the two of you. now let's move to health care, where i know there is a clear difference. and that has to do with the affordable care act, obama care. and it's a two-minute new segment. and that means two minutes each, and you go first, governor romney. you want it repealed. you want the affordable care act repealed. why? >> i sure do. well, in part, it comes again from my experience.

i was in new hampshire. a woman came to me and she said, look, i can't afford insurance for myself or my son. i met a couple in appleton, wisconsin, and they said we're thinking of dropping our insurance. we can't afford it. and the number of small businesses that are dropping their insurance because they can't afford it. the cost of health care is just prohibitive and we've got to deal with cost. and unfortunately when you look at obama care, the congressional budget office has said it will cost $2,500 a year more than traditional insurance. so it's adding for cost. when the president ran for office he said that by this year he would have brought down the cost of insurance for each family by $2,500 a family. instead, it's gone up by that amount. so it's expensive. expensive things hurt families. that's one reason i don't want it. second reason, it cut $716 billion from medicare to pay for it. i want to put that money back in medicare for our seniors. number three, it puts in place an unelected board that's going

to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. i don't like that idea. fourth, there was a survey done of small businesses across the country. said what's been the effect of obama care on your hiring plans and three-quarters of them said it makes us less likely to hire people. i don't know how the president could have come into office facing 23 million people out of work, rising unemployment, an economic crisis at the kitchen table and spend his energy and passion for two years fighting for obama care instead of fighting for jobs for the americans people. it has killed jobs. and the best course for health care is to do what we did in my state. craft a plan at the state level that fits the needs of the and then let's focus and get the cost down for people, rather than raising it with a $2500 additional premium. >> mr. president, the argument against repeal? >> well, four years ago when i was running for office i was

traveling around and having those same conversations that governor romney talks about. and it wasn't that just small businesses were seeing costs skyrocket and they couldn't get affordable coverage. it wasn't just that this was just the biggest driver of our federal deficit, but it was families who were worried about going bankrupt if they got sick. millions of families all across the country. they had a preexisting condition, they might not be able to get coverage at all. if they did have coverage, insurance companies might impose an arbitrary limit. and so as a consequence, they're paying their premiums, somebody gets really sick, lo and behold, they don't have enough money to pay the bills because the insurance companies say that they've hit the limit. so we did work on this, alongside working on jobs. because this is part of making sure that middle class families

are secure in this country. let me tell you exactly what obama care did. number one, you've got health insurance, it doesn't mean a government takeover. you keep your own insurance. you keep your own doctor. but it does say insurance companies can't jerk you around. they can't impose arbitrary lifetime limits. they have to let you keep your kid on your insurance plan until you're 26 years old. and it also says that you're going to have to get rebates if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they are on actual care. number two. if you don't have health insurance, we're essentially setting up a group plan that allows you to benefit from group rates that are typically 18% lower than if you're out there trying to get insurance on the individual market. now, the last point i would make before -- >> two minutes is up, sir. >> no. i think i had five seconds before you interrupted me, was

that the irony is that we've seen this model work really well. in massachusetts. because governor romney did a good thing. working with democrats in the state to set up what is essentially the identical model and as a consequence, people are covered there. it hasn't destroyed jobs. and as a consequence, we now have a system in which we have the opportunity to start bringing down costs, as opposed to just leaving millions of people out in the cold. >> your five seconds went away a long time ago. governor, tell the president directly why you think what he just said is wrong about obama care. >> well, i did with my first statement but i'll go on. >> you did. please elaborate. >> i'll elaborate. exactly right. first of all, i like the way we did it in massachusetts. i like the fact that in my state we had republicans and democrats

come together and work together. what you did instead was to push through a plan without a single republican vote. as a matter of fact, when massachusetts did something quite extraordinary, elected a republican senator to stop obama care, you pushed it through anyway. the so entirely on a partisan basis, instead of bringing america together and having a discussion on this important topic, you pushed through something that you thought was the best answer and drove it through. what we did in the legislature, 87% democrat, we worked together. 200 legislators, only 2 voted against the plan by the time we were finished. we didn't raise taxes. you raised them by a trillion under obama care. we didn't cut medicare. of course, we don't have medicare but we didn't cut medicare by $716 billion. we didn't put in place a board that can tell people ultimately what treatments they're going to receive. we didn't also do something that i think a number of people across this country recognize,

which is put people in a position where they're going to lose the insurance they had and they wanted. right now the cbo says up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as obama care goes into effect next year. and likewise a study of mckinsey and company of american businesses said 30% of them are at risk of being dropped. for those reasons, for the tax, for medicare, for this board and for people losing their insurance, this is why the american people don't want obama care. it's why republicans said do not do this, and the republicans had the plan. they put a plan out. they put a bipartisan plan. it was swept aside. i think something this big, this important, has to be done on a bipartisan basis. and we have to have a president who can reach across the aisle and fashion important legislation with the input from both parties. >> governor romney said this has to be done on a bipartisan basis. this was a bipartisan idea. in fact it was a republican idea.

and governor romney at the beginning of this debate wrote and said what we did in massachusetts could be a model for the nation. and i agree that the democratic legislators in massachusetts might have given some advice to republicans in congress about how to cooperate, but the fact of the matter is, we used the same advisers and they say it's the same plan. it -- when governor romney talks about this board, for example, unelected board that we've created. what this is, is a group of health care experts, doctors, et cetera, to figure out how can we reduce the cost of care in the system overall because there are two ways of dealing with the health care crisis. one is to simply leave a bunch of people uninsured and let them fend for themselves, to let businesses figure out how long they can continue to pay premiums until finally they give up and their workers are no longer getting insured. abe and that's been the trend line. or alternatively we can figure

out how to make the cost of health care more effective. there are ways of doing it. at cleveland clinic, one of the best health care systems in the world, they actually provide great care, cheaper than average, and the reason they do is because they do some smart things. they say if a patient is coming in, let's get the doctors together at once, do one test instead of having the patient run around with ten tests. let's make sure that we're proving preventive care so we're catching the onset of something like diabetes. let's pay providers on the basis of performance, as opposed to on the basis of how many procedures they've engaged in. so what this board does is identifies best practices and says let's use the purchasing power of medicare and medicaid to help to institutionalize all these good things that we do. and the fact of the matter is that when obama care is fully

implemented, we're going to be in a position to show that costs are going down. and over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up. it's true. but they have gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. so we're already beginning to see progress. in the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate. let me make one last point. governor romney says we should replace it. i'm just going to repeal it, but we can replace it with something. but the problem is he hasn't described what exactly we'd replace it with other than saying we're going to leave it to the states. but the fact of the matter is that some of the prescriptions that he's offered like letting you buy insurance across state lines, there's no indication that that somehow's going to help somebody who has a preexisting condition to be able to finally buy insurance.

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let's let the governor explain what you would do if obama care is repealed. how would you replace it? >> actually it's a lengthy description, but number one, preexisting conditions are covered under my plan. number two, young people are able to stay on their family plan. that's already offered in the private marketplace. you don't have the government mandate that for that to occur. but let's come back to the president and i agree on, which is the key task we have in health care is to get the cost down so it's more affordable for families. and then he has as a model for doing that a board of people at the government, an unelected board, appointed board, who are going to decide what kind of treatment you ought to have. in my opinion, the government is not effective in bringing down the cost of almost anything.

as a matter of fact, free people and free enterprises trying to find way toss do things better are able to be more effective in bringing down the cost than the government ever will be. your example of the cleveland clinic is my case in point, along with several others i could describe. this is the private market. these are small -- these are enterprises competing with each other, learning how to do better and better jobs. i used to consult to businesses -- excuse me, to hospitals and to health care providers. i was astonished at the creativity and innovation that exists in the american people. in order to bring the cost of health care down, we don't need to have a board of 15 people telling us what kinds of treatments we should have. we instead need to put insurance plans, providers, hospitals, doctors on target such that they have an incentive as you say, performance pay, for doing an excellent job, for keeping costs down, that's happening. inner mountain health care is doing it well. hayo clinic. cleveland clinic, others.

but the right answer is not to have the federal government take over health care and start mandating to the providers across america, telling a patient and a doctor what kind of treatment they can have. that's the wrong way to go. the private market and individual responsibility always work best. >> let me just point out, first of all, this board that we're talking about can't make decisions about what treatments are given. that's explicitly prohibited in the law. but let's go back to what governor romney indicated. under his plan he would be able to cover people with preexisting conditions. actually, governor, that isn't what your plan does. what your plan does is to duplicate what's already the law. which says if you are on health

insurance for three months, then you can end up getting continuous coverage. and an insurance company can't deny you if it's been under 90 days. but that's already the law. and that doesn't help the millions of people out there with preexisting conditions. there's a reason why governor romney set up the plan that he did in massachusetts. it wasn't a government takeover of health care. it was the largest expansion of private insurance. but what it does say is, insurers, you've got to take everybody. now, that also means that you've got more customers. but when governor romney says that he'll replace it with something but can't detail how it will be, in fact, replaced, and the reason he set up the system he did in massachusetts is because there isn't a better way of dealing with the preexisting conditions problem. it just reminds me he says he's going to close deductions and loopholes for his tax plan. that's how it's going to be paid for, but we don't know the details. he says that he's going to replace dodd-frank, wall street reform, but we don't know exactly which ones.

he won't tell us. he now says he's going to replace obama care and assure that all the good things that are in it are going to be in there and you don't have to worry. and at some point i think the american people have to ask themselves is the reason that governor romney is keeping all these plans to replace secret because they're too good? is it because that somehow middle class families are going to benefit too much from them? no, the reason is because when we reform wall street, when we tackle the problem of preexisting conditions, then these are tough problems. and we've got to make choices. and the choices we've made have been ones that are ultimately benefiting middle class families all across the country. >> we're going to move to -- >> i have to respond to that. which is my experience as a governor is if i come in and lay down a piece of legislation and say it's my way or the highway, i don't get a lot done.

what i do, the same way that tip o'neill and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to follow. he said he was going to lower taxes and broaden the base. you've said the same thing, those are my principles. i want to bring down the tax burden middle income families. i want to work together with congress. one way for instance would be to have a single number, make up a number. $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have deductions up to that amount. and then the number disappears for high-income people. one could follow bowles-simpson as a model. and take deduction by deduction and make differences that way. there are alternatives to accomplish the objective i have, which is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code and create incentives for growth. and with regards to health care you had remarkable details with regards to my preexisting conditions plan. you've obviously studied up on

my plan. in fact, i do have a plan that deals with people with preexisting conditions. that's part of my health care plan. and what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nation state by state. and i said at that time. the federal government taking over health care for the entire nation, and whisking aside the 10th amendment which gives states the right for these things is not the course for america to have a stronger and vibrant economy. and regions is here to help. with the experience and service to keep things rolling. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going. together. begins with back pain and a choice. take advil, and maybe have to take up to four in a day.

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that is a terrific segue to our next segment and is the role of government. and let's see. role of government and it is -- you are first on this, mr. president. and the question is this, do you believe, both of you, but you have the first two minutes on this, mr. president, do you believe there's a fundamental difference between the two of you as to how you view the mission of the federal government? >> well, i definitely think there are differences.

the first role of the government is to keep people safe. that's its basic function. as commander in chief that is something i have worked on and thought about every single day that i've been in the oval office. but i also believe that government has the capacity, the federal government has the capacity to help open up opportunity and create ladders of opportunity and to create frameworks where the american people can succeed. look, the genius of america is the free enterprise system and freedom and the fact that people can go out there and start a business, work on an idea, make their own decisions. but as abraham lincoln understood, there are also some things we do better together. so in the middle of the civil war, abraham lincoln said let's help to finance the transcontinental railroad.

let's start the national academy of sciences. let's start land grant colleges, because we want to give these gateways of opportunity for all americans because if all americans are getting opportunity we're all going to be better off. that doesn't restrict people's freedom. that enhances it. so what i've tried to do as president is to apply those same principles. and when it comes to education what i've said is we've got to reform schools that are not working. we used something called race to the top. it wasn't a top-down approach, governor. what we've said to states, we'll give you more money if you initiate reforms. and as a consequence, you had 46 states around the country who have made a real difference. but what i've also said is let's hire another 100,000 math and science teachers to make sure we maintain our technological lead to make sure our skilled and able to succeed and hard-pressed

states right now can't all do that. in fact we've seen layoffs of hundreds of thousands of teachers over the last several years, and governor romney doesn't think we need more teachers. i do. because i think that that is the kind of investment where the federal government can help. it can't do it all, but it can make a difference. and as a consequence will have a better trained workforce and that will create jobs because companies want to locate in places where we've got a skilled workforce. >> two minutes, governor. your view. >> first, i love great schools. massachusetts, our schools are ranked number one in all 50 states. and the key to great schools, great teachers. so i reject the idea that i don't believe in great teachers or more teachers. every school district and every state should make that decision on their own. the role of government. look behind us. the constitution and the declaration of independence. the role of government is to promote and protect the principles of those documents. first life and liberty. we have a responsibility to

protect the lives and liberties of our people and that means our military second to none. i believe in maintaining the strength of america's military. second, in that line that says we are endowed by our creator with our rights. i believe we must maintain our commitment to religious tolerance and freedom in our country. that statement also says that we are endowed by our creator to pursue happiness as we choose. i interrupt that as, one, making sure that people who are less fortunate are cared for by one another. we're a nation that believes we're all children of the same god and we care for those that have difficulties, those that are elderly and have problems, and challenges, those that are disabled, we care for them. and we look for discovery and innovation and all these things desired out of the american heart to provide the pursuit of happiness for our citizens. but we also believe in maintaining for individuals the right to pursue their dreams and not to have the government

substitute itself for the rights of free individuals. and what we're seeing right now is in my view a trickle-down government approach which has government thinking it can do a better job than free people pursuing their dreams, and it's not working. and the proof that is 23 million people out of work. the proof of that is 1 of 6 people in poverty. we've gone to 47 million on food stamps. the proof of that is 50% of college graduates this year can't find work. we know that the path we're taking is not working. it's time for a new path. >> let's go through some specifics in terms of how each of you views the role of government. education. does the federal government have a responsibility to improve the quality of public education in america? >> well, the primary responsibility for education is, of course, at the state and local level. but the federal government also can play a very important role. i agree with secretary arne

duncan. the federal government can get local and state schools to do a better job. my own view, by the way, is i've added to that. i want the kids that are getting federal dollars from i.d.e.a. or title 1, these are disabled kids or poor kids or lower-income kids, rather, i want them to be able to go to the school of their choice. so all federal funds, instead of going to the state or to the school district, i'd have go, if you will, follow the child and let the parent and the child decide where to send their student. matt's brakes didn't sound right... ...so i brought my car to mike at meineke...

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how do you see the federal government's responsibility to improve the quality of public education in this country? >> well, as i've indicated, i think it has a significant role to play. through our race to top program we've worked with republican and democrat governors to initiate major reforms. >> do you think you have a difference with your views and

those of governor romney about education? >> this is where budgets matter because budgets reflect choices. so when governor romney indicates that he wants to cut taxes and potentially benefit folks like me and him and to pay for it we're having to initiate significant cuts in federal support for education, that makes a difference. you know, his running mate, congressman ryan put forward a budget that reflects many of the principles that governor romney has talked about. and it wasn't very detailed. this seems to be a trend, but what it did do is to, if you extrapolated how much money we're talking about, you would look at cutting the education budget by up to 20%. when it comes to community colleges, we are seeing great work done out there all over the country because we have the opportunity to train people for jobs that exist right now. and one of the things that i

suspect governor romney and i probably agree on is getting businesses to work with community colleges so they're setting up their training programs -- >> do you agree governor? >> let me finish the point. >> by the way, yeah. >> where they're partnering so that they're designing training programs and people who are going through them know that there's a job waiting for them if they complete it. that makes a big difference but that requires some federal support. let me just say one final example. when it comes to making college affordable, whether it's two year or four year, one of the things that i did as president was we were sending $60 billion to banks and lenders as middle men for the student loan program. even though the loans were guaranteed, so there was no risk for the banks or the lenders, but they were taking billions out of the system. and we said why not cut out the

middle man? and as a convince what we've been able to do is provide millions more students assistance, lower or keep low interest rates on student loans. and this is an example of where our priorities make a difference. governor romney, i genuinely believe, cares about education. but when he tells a student that, you know, you should borrow money from your parents to go to college that indicates the degree to which there may not be as much of a focus on the fact that folks like myself, folks like michelle, kids probably who attend university of denver, just don't have that option. and for us to be able to make sure that they've got that opportunity and they can walk through that door, that is vitally important. not just to those kids. it's how we're going to grow this economy over the long term. >> we're running out of time. >> jim -- >> a chance to respond to that. >> mr. president, you're entitled as a plane, a house but not to your own facts. i'm not going to cut education funding.

i don't have any plan to cut education funding and grants that go to people going to college i'm planning on continuing to grow. i'm not planning on making changes there. but you make a very good point. which is the place you put your money makes it pretty clear indication where your heart is. you put $90 billion into green jobs. and i -- look. i'm all in favor of green energy. $90 billion, that would have hired 2 million teachers. $90 billion. and these businesses, many of them have gone out of business. i think half of those invested in have gone out of business. a number of them happened to be owned by people who were contributors to your campaign. look. the right course for america's government -- we're talking about the role of government, is not to become the economic player, picking winners and losers, telling people what kind of health treatment they can receive, taking over the health care system that has existed in this country for a long, long time and has produced the best health records in the world.

the right answer for government is how to make more efficient, how do we make schools more competitive. let's grade them. so parents know which schools are succeeding and failing. so they can take their child to a school that he's being more successful. i don't want to cut our commitment to education. i want to make it more effective and efficient. and by the way, i've had that experience. i don't just talk about it. i've been there. massachusetts schools are ranked number one in the nation. this is not because i didn't have commitment to education. it's because i care about education for all of our kids. >> all right, gentlemen. excuse me one second. excuse me, sir. we've barely have three minutes left. i'm not going to grade the two of you and say your answers have been too long or i've done a poor job. >> you've done a great job. >> well, no. but the fact is the role of government and governing, we've lost a pod in other words. so we only have three minutes left in the debate before we go

to your closing statements. and so, i want to ask finally here -- and remember, we've got three minutes total time here. and the question is this. many of the legislative functions of the federal government right now are in a state of paralysis as a result of partisan gridlock. if elected in your case, if re-elected in your case, what would you do about that? governor? >> jim, i had the great experience, it didn't seem like it at the time, of being elected in a state where my legislature was 87% democrat. and that meant i figured out from day one i had to get along and i had to work across the aisle to get anything done. we drove our schools to be number one in the nation. we cut taxes 19 times. >> what would you do as president? >> as president i will sit down on day one, actually the day after i get elected, i'll sit down with leaders, the democratic leaders as well as

republican leaders, as we did in my state, we met every monday for a couple of hours talked about the issues and the challenges. we have to work on a collaborative basis. not because we're going to compromise our principle but because there's common ground and the challenges that america faces right now. look. the reason i'm in this race is there are people that are really hurting today in this country, and we face -- this deficit could crush the future generations. what's happening in the middle east. there are developments around the world that are of real concern. and republicans and democrats both love america, but we need to have leadership. leadership in washington that will actually bring people together and get the job done. and could not care less if it's a republican or a democrat. i've done it before. i'll do it again. >> mr. president? >> first of all, i think governor romney is going to have a busy first day because he's also going to repeal obama care which will not be very popular among democrats as you're sitting down with them. but look. my philosophy has been, i will take ideas from anybody.

democrat or republican, as long as they're advancing the cause of making middle class families stronger. and giving opportunities to the middle class. that's how we cut taxes for middle class families and small businesses. that's how we cut the trillion dollars of spending that wasn't advancing that cause. that's how we signed free trade deals into law that are doubling our exports to sell more american products around the world. that's how we repealed don't ask don't tell. that's how we ended the war in iraq and how we're going to wind down the war in afghanistan. that's how we went after al qaeda and bin laden. so we have seen progress even under republican control of the house of representatives. but ultimately, part of being principled, part of being a leader is, "a" being able to describe exactly what it is you intend to do, not just saying i'll sit down. but you have to have a plan. number two. what's important is occasionally you've got to say no to folks both in your own party and in

the other party. and, you know, have we had some fights between me and the republicans when they fought back against us reining in the excesses of wall street? absolutely. because that was a fight that needed to be had. when we were fighting about whether or not we're going to make sure that americans had more security with their health insurance, and they said no, yes, that was a fight that we needed to have. so part of leadership and governing is both saying what it is that you are for, but also, being willing to say no to some things. and i've got to tell you, governor romney, when it comes to his own party during the course of this campaign, has not displayed that willingness to say no to some of the more extreme parts of his party. ♪

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that brings us to closing statements. there's a coin toss. governor romney, you won the toss, and you elected to go last. so you have a closing, two minutes, mr. president. >> well, jim, i want to thank you and i want to thank governor

romney because i think this was a terrific debate, and i very much appreciate it. and i want to thank the university of denver. you know, four years ago, we were going through a major crisis. and yet my faith and confidence in the american future is undiminished. and the reason is because of its people. because of the woman i met in north carolina who decided at 55 to go back to school because she wanted to inspire her daughter and now has a job from that new training that she's gotten because of a company in minnesota who was willing to give up salaries and perks for their executives to make sure they didn't layoff workers during a recession. the autoworkers that you meet in detroit take such pride in building the best cars in the world, not just because of a paycheck, but because it gives them that sense of pride that they're helping to build america.

the question now is, how do we build on those strengths, and everything that i've tried to do and everything that i'm proposing for the next four years, in terms of our education system or developing american energy or making sure we're closing loopholes for companies that are shipping jobs overseas or focusing on companies creating jobs here in the united states or closing our deficit in a responsible, balanced way that allows us to invest in our future, all those things are designed to make sure that the american people, their genius, their grit, their determination is channelled and they have an opportunity to succeed. and everybody is getting a fair shot and everybody is doing a fair share and playing by the same rules. you know, four years ago i said that i'm not a perfect man and i wouldn't be a perfect president and that's probably a promise that governor romney thinks i've kept. but i also promised that i would fight every single day on behalf of the american people, the middle class and all those who

are striving to get into the middle class. i've kept that promise and if you vote for me, i promise i'll fight just as hard in the second term. >> governor romney? >> thank you, jim, mr. president and thank you for tuning in this evening. this is an important election and i'm concerned about america. i'm concerned about the direction america has been taking over the last four years. i know this is bigger than an election about the two of us as individuals. it's bigger than our respective parties. it's an election about the course of america. what kind of america do you want to have for yourself and for your children. and there really are two very different paths that we began speaking about this evening and over the course of this month we're going to have two more presidential debates and a vice presidential debate. but they lead in different directions, and it's not just looking to our words that you have to take into evidence to where they go. you can look at the record. there's no question in my mind that if the president were to be re-elected you'll continue to see a middle class squeeze with

incomes going down and prices going up. i'll get incomes up again. you'll see chronic unemployment. we've had 43 straight months with unemployment above 8%. if i'm president, i will help create 12 million new jobs in this country with rising incomes. if the president is re-elected, obama care will be fully installed. in my view, that's going to mean a while different way of life for people that counted on the health care insurance of the past. your going to see health premiums go up by some $2,500 per family. if i'm elected we'll put in place the kinds of principles i put in place in my state and allow each state to craft their own programs to get people insured and focus on getting the cost of health care down. if the president were to be re-elected, you're going to see a $716 billion cut to medicare. you'll have 4 million people who will lose medicare advantage. you'll have hospitals and providers that will no longer accept medicare patients. i'll restore that $716 billion to medicare. and finally, military.

if the president's re-elected, you'll see dramatic cuts to our military. the secretary of defense has said these would be devastating. i will not cut our commitment to our military. i will keep america strong and get america's middle class working again. thank you, jim. >> thank you, governor. thank you, mr. president. the next debate will be on thursday october 11th. for now from the university of denver, i'm jim lehrer. thank you and good night. [ applause ] all right. here we are live on cnn. good to see you. i'm brooke baldwin. debate one is in the books. what are you hearing? i'm hearing the president could

have used a cup of coffee. maybe two. that's from his own supporters. >> he looked tired to me. i mean, i think a lot of people said that it felt like -- i don't know. ultimately, it's partly the fault of the prepping but the president's got -- it's difficult after four years, you know, you haven't debated. it's a different format but he's got to step up and do that. >> well, already today, here he is. the president hitting the campaign trail. we'll hear what he said in a moment. and it's pretty safe to say he's looking more chipper than last night when the snap poll found him losing that debate two to one. al gore said that obama should have arrived in denver earlier to acclimate himself to the altitude. as for romney supporters they're downright giddy today saying their guy did exactly what he needed to do to claw back in to the race for president. >> i've never seen a debate as

decisive as the one last night. so, we all knew that it had to be -- he had to hit it out of the park and he hit it out of the park. >> we heard about romney's extensive debate preparations. today, the president's people saying romney appeared centrist and romney with numbers, came in with statistics. i'll let you hear some of mitt romney and then you. this is mitt romney explaining that we're on the wrong path. >> 23 million people out of work. the proof of that is 1 out of 6 people in poverty. the proof of that is is 32 million on food stamps to 47 million on food stamps. the proof of that is 50% of college graduates this year can't find work. we know that the path we're taking is not working. it's time for a new path. >> romney actually came off as a more moderate candidate tonight

and probably looks better than he ever had and being next to the president gave him actually more credibility. >> round one tonight goes to romney. >> who do i give this to? i give it to obama because he was prepared with the facts and that romney was trying to change them during the debate. >> romney seems calm. you know? what he's talking about. he's taking less notes. obama the minute mitt romney opens his mouth, obama's taking notes and he just talked and looked down and looked down and looked down. he's never making contact. >> i'm sorry. if you're planning on waxing big bird off of pbs, i don't think that there's americans down for that. >> so, that is from you. thank you for your cnn ireports. now, to twitter. how about some tweets? some downright priceless. first, from dennis miller, obama better hope a kicked rear end is

covered under obamacare. next from indecision. the october surprise in this election is that mitt romney is actually good at something. ouch. jim sterling tweets, obama is winning the "looking amazingly condescending when the other guy talks" race. finally this one for you from doug benson. just 14 minutes until we can all go back to preferring the kand date we liked when the debate started. all from twitter. we have a lot more. you know, as far as what happened last night and i promise to hear from the president and it sounds as though he is still debating today. he spoke just a couple hours ago in denver. here he is, president barack obama. >> i met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be mitt romney. but it couldn't have been mitt romney because the real mitt romney has been running around the country for the last year

promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favor the wealthy, the fellow on stage last night said he didn't know anything about that. >> that was the president on last night's debate and, well mitt romney responded for the first time since the pundits and polls named him the winner. you will hear what governor romney said about the president's performance, next. can febreze really remove them? we asked real people what they thought. take a deep breath for me. describe the smell. it's very pleasant. fresh. some kind of flower maybe? remove the blindfold... awww, oh yuck! i didn't smell any of that! febreze air effects doesn't mix, it actually removes odors. [ laughs ] wow, that's incredible. just another way febreze helps you breathe happy. [ laughs ] wow, that's incredible. ♪ atmix of energies.ve the world needs a broader that's why we're supplying natural gas to

generate cleaner electricity... that has around 50% fewer co2 emissions than coal. and it's also why, with our partner in brazil, shell is producing ethanol - a biofuel made from renewable sugarcane. >>a minute, mom! let's broaden the world's energy mix. let's go. the wheels of progress haven't been very active lately. but because of business people like you, things are beginning to get rolling. and regions is here to help. making it easier with the expertise and service to keep those wheels turning. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going. together.

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[ male announcer ] now get 50% off brake pads and shoes at meineke. as we mentioned a moment ago, we are now hearing from republican presidential candidate mitt romney today. this is the first time we have seen or heard from him since last night's debate. in denver he made a surprise appearance in denver. in fact, four of romney's sons scheduled to speak at the event and then, boom. their dad popped in. >> last night i thought was a great opportunity for the american people to see two very different visions for the country. and i think it was helpful to be able to describe those visions. i saw the president as trickle down government and i don't think that's what america believes in. i see instead a prosperity that comes through freedom and we have two very different courses

for america. trickle down america or prosperity through freedom and trickle down government that the president proposes is one where we will raise taxes on small business which will kill jobs. i instead want to keep taxes down on small business so we can create jobs. this is about good jobs for the american people. if we continue down his path, there's no question but that the middle class which the vice president noted has been buried will continue to be buried with higher and higher expenses for gasoline, for food, for utilities, for health insurance. if i'm elected instead we'll see prices moderated when people have higher incomes again, rising incomes in america with more jobs. we're going to have a stronger america with more jobs, rising incomes, moderated prices. that's a very different path than one with trickle down

government. there's another place where there's difference. that's energy prices under trickle down government you have the president saying in the last campaign that under his policies in energy that prices of energy would necessarily skyrocket. well, i believe an alternative we should have north american energy independence. use the energy we have. it will create jobs and keep the costs down and reinvigorate our economy. and you heard the president last night describe how he plans on reducing the deficit. he said it was $4 trillion but only in washington would you count $4 trillion of reduction when, in fact, his plan calls for adding a trillion dollars of debt every one of the next four years. the congressional budget office says that by the end of a four-year period if he were to be reelected trickle down government could lead to a setting of $20 trillion in debt.

i think that's wrong. i think we should instead take a course represented by freedom which says we'll finally get america to cap our spending, to cut our spending and get us on track to a balanced budget. and it's -- it's not often i'm told that republicans are able to go out and talk about medicare with such passion as we do but let me tell you. when someone is taking $716 billion away from our current seniors in their medicare plan to pay for obama care, we say no way. we'll put it back and get rid of obama care. and then, and then there's our military. the president has proposed cutting our military budget and

then the sequestration idea that came out of the white house cuts our military budget even more. we're looking at about a trillion dollars in cuts. the secretary of defense has said that those cuts would be devastating to our military. can you imagine allowing cuts of that nature to proceed as the president seems to be willing to do. if i'm president we'll not cut our military budget. and you know, you know how important this is. trickle down government will not create the jobs americans need. trickle down government will not bring down the cost of energy. trickle down government will not allow incomes to rise. freedom is what drives the economy. free people pursuing their dreams. economic freedom. we're bringing it back and the consequence for doing it right versus doing it wrong is really

extraordinary. this is about the 23 million people in this country out of work or stopped looking for work or just given up. this is about the one out of six people that have fallen in to poverty. it's about the 47 million people on food stamps. we don't measure compassion by how many people we can put on food stamps. we measure compassion by how many people we can get a good job so they can get off of food stamps. and so, this is about those 23 million people. it's about the next generation for the first time in history. americans believe the future's not as bright as the past and the kids don't enjoy the prosperity they've enjoyed. that would happen i'm afraid if president obama is re-elected. it won't happen if i'm elected the next president of the united states. and there's -- and there's

consequences for the world, as well. and i think you understand this. i've been fond over the last few weeks of describing my trip to poland when i got the chance to meet with a world hero and a champion of freedom. i came in to see him, by the way. and he met me graciously. shook my hand and said you must be tired. you've come from america. you sit. i'll talk. you listen. so i did. i sat down. he said it with a smile. i sat down and he began to speak and over a period of about 15 minutes he repeated these words time and time again. where's american leadership? we need american leadership. we need american lead. and he'd describe an area in the world, middle east or other area and the tumult in the area, he'd say where's american leadership? you are the only superpower on the planet. we need america to lead. and american leadership begins

with strong values and principles in our homes and communities. it extends -- it extends to a strong economy. that's why we're spending so much time talking about our economy. everything we do flows from having a strong economy. and so, we must rekindle the american economy. these last three years, this has not been a real recovery. oh, it bumps up and down. you'll see ups and downs over the coming months but this is not the trend to see. so far, this year, america's economy is growing more slowly than last year and last year grew more slowly than the year before. the federal reserve printing money. doing everything they can to prop it up. we need to rekindle a strong economy. if america's going to have that last pillar of our strength, which is a strong military, i will not cut our military. it will be second to none. it will be so strong no one will ever think of testing it.

and so, the american people, the american people last night were given a choice. they were given a choice between two different visions for america. one where we continued down the road to become more and more like europe. where a government gets larger and larger, more and more intrusive in the lives. borrowing more and more. putting us at a road to greece. the other returns america to america where we're restoring the principles of freedom and hope and opportunity that this nation has always been built upon. i will take us there with your help. we're going to take back this country and keep it the hope of the earth. thank you so much. great to be with you and let's get out there and win. thank you. >> mitt romney surprise appearance there at c-pac in denver. other speakers included florida senator rubio, romney's next stop tonight in virginia. and with a new jobs report coming out tomorrow, i'm going

to give both candidates about the claim on the money. who is it? joining me emerging from the dark, this man. hello, ali velshi. >> good to see you, brooke. >> good to see you. he's up next. febreze car vents could eliminate the odor. then we brought her family to our test facility to see if it worked. [ woman ] take a deep breath, tell me what you smell. something fresh. a beach. a clean house. my new car. [ woman ] go ahead and take your blindfolds off. oh!! hahahaha!!! look at all this garbage!!! [ male announcer ] febreze car. eliminates odors for continuous freshness, so you can breathe happy. eliminates odors for continuous freshness, these appliances could have been made here in america. but a company called global tech maximized profits by paying its workers next to nothing... under sweatshop conditions in china. when mitt romney led bain, they saw global tech as a good investment... even knowing that the firm promoted its practice of exploiting... low-wage labor to its investors.

mitt romney - tough on china? since when?

big fight last night over taxes and pretty much went like this. >> governor romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut on top of the extension of the bush tax cuts. that's another trillion dollars and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't asked for. >> i'm not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. that's not my plan. my plan is not to put in place any tax cut to add to the deficit. >> now, today, the president is saying, hang on. that's not mitt romney. he says romney's changing the tune on the crucial issue of taxes to make himself sound more centrist. ali velshi is here to make sense of what we heard last night. >> right. >> the first question on the tax cut proposal. the president is saying he's flip flopping. is he proposing $5 trillion in tax cuts? >> so this is a tricky one. what mitt romney is saying is he wants to reduce taxes across the board in every category.

wherever you are coming down 20%. if you don't figure out where you're going to make up the taxes from, if you take 20% less from everybody it's over 10 years a $4.9 trillion loss and overstating it a little bit but there's a study that's been done and if you extend president obama's argument in order to not create a $5 trillion hole in the budget you have to increase taxes and one study done by a liberal group that says middle class families paying $2,000 more per year to accommodate that. >> that's what president obama's saying. he's saying if romney gives the wealthy a tax cut and he keeps the military spending from, you know, rising that that would then translate in to hitting the middle class. is that a presumption on the president's part to be sticking it to the middle class if romney is elected? >> it's an assumption. i'll tell you romney's response. if you lower everybody's tax rates, this is what he believes, they'll take the money saved by not giving it to the government

and invest it or spend in it a fashion that will goose the economy and create jobs. what mitt romney says is that everybody will pay a lower percentage of the income as taxes and more people working, earning more and as a result the government won't be giving up $4.9 over 5 years. they'll be getting that money back. >> money bc. >> that -- that's neither right or wrong. not true or a false. it's an assumption versus a different assumption. mitt romney and conservatives believe if you cut taxes you goose the economy and it becomes more prosperous. it's -- we don't know it's not true or true. it's a different economy now. >> what about tomorrow's the big day, the jobs number and romney specifically made a promise last night coming to job creation. let me roll this. >> if i'm president, i will create, help create 12 million new jobs in this country. with rising incomes. >> 12 million new -- >> yeah. >> i see your finger tapping. >> i have a lot of trouble

claiming with that. president obama came out, his staff came up with a same number a few days after mitt romney first said it. i think they did the calculus and said he's promising 12 million jobs. i've done a lot of research. this is only happened three times in american history. once was during world war ii and such an anomaly. take that out. last two times, under ronald reagan during that four years average economic growth as measured by gdp was in the high 4% range. the second time was under bill clinton where it's 4.3%. our economic growth is 1.3%. so they're talking about a 50% increase in job creation in a very slow economy. >> so you're doing the math and doesn't translate. >> disingenuous promise and no one explains where do the jobs come from? >> no one has an answer. >> i'm pressing both sides for a very long time. it is unsatisfactory as a claim but they're both doing it. >> and by the way, you're in

atlanta because you are -- >> i'm actually having a forum tonight. i'm hosting a panel on millennials. >> between now and -- we need to get him with millennials. >> ask them to tweet me and tell me what life is like. >> good luck with you. good to see you, friend. >> and you. >> watch ali, of course. tivo him, read his book "your money." right here on cnn. coming up next, we have a debate coach here in studio and she is going to tell me and you what each candidate needs to do during the next faceoff including specifics about body lack wage and talking to you, the americans. as station about once a month. last time i was at a gas station was about...i would say... two months ago. i very rarely put gas in my chevy volt. i go to the gas station such a small amount that i forget how to put gas in my car. [ male announcer ] and it's not just these owners giving the volt high praise. volt received the j.d. power and associates

appeal award two years in a row. ♪ i've got a nice long life ahead. big plans. so when i found out medicare doesn't pay all my medical expenses, i looked at my options. then i got a medicare supplement insurance plan. [ male announcer ] if you're eligible for medicare, you may know it only covers about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you.

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who have already enrolled in the only medicare supplement insurance plans endorsed by aarp, an organization serving the needs of people 50 and over for generations. remember, all medicare supplement insurance plans help cover what medicare doesn't pay. and could save you thousands a year in out-of-pocket costs. call now to request your free decision guide. and learn more about the kinds of plans that will be here for you now -- and down the road. i have a lifetime of experience. so i know how important that is. is your head reeling from the debate spin? let's break this down for you because we asked a debate expert to choose a single defining moment for each candidate that really characterized his overall performance. she is melissa maxi wade of

emery university. nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you. >> so let's just begin with president obama because he began, you know, with the first response last night. his defining moment. could be good or bad thing. set it up for me. >> i think his was probably a bad thing and it was the last speech and presentation which didn't really capitalize on the strengths earlier in the debate. >> okay. let's see what she means. roll it. >> four years ago, i said that i'm not a perfect man and i wouldn't be a perfect president and that's probably a promise governor romney thinks i've kept but i also promised to fight every single day on behalf of the american people and the middle class and those drivie s to get in the middle class and i've kept that promise and if you vote for me i'll fight as hard in the second term. >> okay. what are you seeing there? >> i'm seeing that the strengths earlier in the debate when he talked about the repetitive narrative which was awesome, by the way, that romney wasn't giving specifics for what he'd

do about dodd-frank, what he'd do with obama care and close tax loopholes. he says is it a secret he can't share with us? would have been beautiful to bring that in to the closing. instead of a sort of a weak toss-out to the middle class. and what was probably supposed to be humble i'm not a perfect president came across as flat at this point in the debate. i think he knows he's not done well and reflected in that sentence. >> okay. you say flat in the end. >> yes. >> mitt romney, defining moment, set it up for me? >> this is the same thing. the end speech and i think it's clear when you look at it. >> okay. let's take a look. >> if i'm elected we won't have obama care. we'll put in place the kind of principles that i've put in place in my own state and allow each state to krapt their own programs to get people insured and focus on getting the cost of health care down. if the president were to be re-elected you will see a $716 billion cut to medicare.

you'll have 4 million people to lose medicare advantage. you'll have hospitals and provider that is will no longer accept medicare patients. >> you say this was a defining noemt a good way? >> in a good way. it's crisp, polished. he's confident. he knows he's done well. >> how can you tell? >> it shows in his demeanor, his face and gesture. he's got confidence in the voice, giving good eye contact and at the end of the day he knows he is ready to give the best strategic pitch, medicare and the end is $7 of billion, this is an answer. 43% or 18 straight months of high unemployment. all of that. it was out of the park. >> what makes last night different from the next big presidential debate, candy crowley's hosting october 16th, that's the town hall debate so members of the audience get to ask the questions. last night it was silent. the audience had to be quiet. how will that hurt or help either of those men? >> obama feeds off the energy of

the crowd and what you see today -- >> in denver. >> he needs off the energy of a crowd. part of the challenge that governor romney's going to have is he's gotten affirmation of being aggressive and it's easy when you have had that to take that in to the next setting. most debate strategies don't work as well the second time and in a town hall setting it's a particular problem because it's people asking the questions and aggression towards the moderator in the debate is probably not going to fly in a town hall. that said, he's getting a lot of affirmation for being presidential as opposed to likable. and i think that that's something he's going to take in at least psychologically in to the contest. obama i suspect will see a fooisier performance. >> okay. let's follow up after that debate october 16th. candy crowley. thank you very much, melissa maxi way from emery university. we need to talk vice presidential debate. you have vice president joe

biden, congressman paul ryan facing off. special coverage next thursday night. just ahead, developing situation along the turkey-syria border. hours after an exchange of artillery fire, turkey's government holds an emergency session giving the green light for their troops to enter syria. ♪ ♪ introducing a stunning work of technology. ♪ introducing the entirely new lexus es. and the first ever es hybrid. this is the pursuit of perfection.

emergency meetings are taking place in the international community to calm the tensions now between syria and turkey. this after five turks were killed in a home along the border there. victims of syrian artillery fire. the turks retaliated. this is the first time for them. killing several syrian soldiers. syria apologized today for hitting this turkish town and promised it would not happen again and then there was this. this is a tweet from a senior adviser to turkey's prime minister tweeting, quote, turkey has no interest in a war with syr syria. but turkey is capable of protecting its borders and will retaliate when necessary. senior international correspondent n ic robertson with me now. with the parliament approving use of force, yet, you know, part of the tweet saying we don't want to go to war, what do

we read there? >> syria's been put on notice. two syrian officials have apologized for this. they're bending over backwards to say this won't happen again but internally, politically in turkey, the prime minister cannot afford not to appear strong. it's national security and this is what the parliamentary decision is all about. they will not have to wait f. they need to put troops across the border in a decision taking a few minutes, they'll be ready to do it so this is also an accident waiting to happen. this is a kind of steady escalation you see in these types of scenarios or war. nothing is predictable. we don't know what will happen. another stray shell. turkey poised to respond more strongly than it's been up until now. what could that lead to? so this is an escalation and it could become much more serious. >> i have to ask, though, because as we talk about syria apologizing and we have been watching the slaughter for 18 months and counting saying they're sorry? >> because they don't want the

international community involved. they have ratcheted up the attacks on the civilians and on the free syrian army, shooting at them first and then rockets, mortars, tank fire. now helicopters dropping bombs. but always trying to keep that death toll, you know, just down low enough that the international community doesn't get involved but getting shells over the border, killing turkish civilians, that drags the international community in. so of course they want to tamp this down. they'll lose that diplomatic support of china and russia so important to them if they play it wrong and they're making mistakes. >> they're on alert. nic robertson, thank you. thank you, thank you. back to politics now. and the missed opportunities by these candidates just last night. how can both men wright their wrongs before the next debate? margaret hoover, john avlon joins me next. john said one moment made his jaw drop.

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you know, several polls gave mitt romney the win in last night's presidential debate. take a look at the numbers with me. in the cnn poll, 61% say the president did worse than expected. folks 6 out of every 10. and another, headline on politico this morning reading obama snoozes and loses. so what went wrong? what went right? help us analyze last night's debate, bring in the favorite married political couple, our cnn contributor margaret hoover and john avlon. he is an independent. she is the conservative of the duo. guys, welcome back. margaret, let's begin with you. >> thank you. >> we asked both of you here what would be a big miss. you say the big miss for the president was the 47%. what do you mean? >> well, you know, it really was political malpractice of him not to bring it up because the campaign is premised on the fact that mitt romney isn't going to hit the threshold for being

president because he doesn't understand the pain and the pain of people in the middle class because he's wealthy and can't relate to the economic reality. by missing that opportunity, by not mentioning this, this is pounding and pounding mitt romney on the campaign trail for a couple of weeks, he actually gave mitt romney an opening to make the case and show the people who are watching that he is compassionate, that he does understand. mitt romney gave at least three different examples of individuals on the campaign trail suffering because of the obama economy as he said that would do better under his tax plans and by not lit galling he will have a less of a chance of making that point because mitt romney seemed pretty compassionate last night. >> okay. so malpractice you see. john avlon had a jaw dropping moment. let's watch the moment and then we'll talk. >> well, i don't have a $5 trillion tax cut. i don't have a tax cut of the scale you're talking about. my view is that we ought to provide tax relief to people in the middle class but i won't redees the share of taxes paid

by high income people. >> jaw dropping because -- >> i mean, just surreal. the size of the etch-a-sketch. the audacity on taxes. which was unbelievable. i mean, almost as if mitt romney's not listening to the campaign rhetoric for five years. the core difference between the candidates is about the tax cuts for the upper income bracket and 20% tax cut across the board. mitt romney never specified the deductions that he discusses and doesn't give specifications on, to say i don't have a tax cut is surreal and the president with malpractice not pushing back on that and demanding specifics. >> some of the president's supporters said he needed a cup of coffee or two after watching that. let's listen to this from the president, guys and then, john, i want your thoughts on this one. >> does anybody out there think that the big problem we had is that there was too much

oversight and regulation of wall street? because if you do, then governor romney is your candidate. >> did he, john, miss an opportunity to go further with the banks there? >> i mean, that was one of i think president obama's better lines in the debate because he was calling out in a limited way and halting way all of a sudden mitt romney saying that the problem with the dodd-frank was that it was a big kiss to the new york banks which is itself a surreal etch-a-sketch moment. the president needed more comments on that. >> your wife is shaking her head. i see -- >> i'm sure she is. >> margaret hoover, jump in. >> look. i think that mitt romney did a great job last night, especially on the point saying, look. we need regulation. this is not a matter of no regulation versus regulation. we need some regulations but when you have 2,700 pages of a law that's basically going to codify too big to fail then you have got regulation that is are going to really hurt the economy

and hurting small and community banks. he actually i think thought we nuanced in that answer and came off as pragmatic and problem solving so, again, soccer. i do disagree with john on that point. >> head shaking and smiling, the sign of a wonderful relationship. we have to leave it there. we'll continue another day. margaret, john, always, always a pleasure. and now, let's talk about undecided voters. courting those undecided voters, president obama, mitt romney going all out to get their votes. stick around because my next guest says she knows where those undecided voters are and how the candidates can win them over. ou. so we invented a warning you can feel. introducing the all-new cadillac xts. available with a patented safety alert seat. when there's danger you might not see, you're warned by a pulse in the seat. it's technology you won't find in a mercedes e-class.

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barack obama, mitt romney, both have now pulled out of denver. the president turned up at a rally late this morning before jetting off to wisconsin. he is accusing romney of changing his tune at last night's debate in order to sound more sin tres, but it's the president's own supporters saying obama needs to step it up. take a look at this. results of our snap poll show that romney bettered obama by a margin of more than two to one. we'll show you numbers in a second. he has to try to build momentum as he heads to virginia to campaign tonight with his number

two congressman paul ryan. now, there is the teeniest, tiniest slice of the american electorate. they're also the ones both presidential candidates are going really all-out now to try to get. what am i talking about? undecided voters. take a look at the latest cnn/orc poll and you'll see only 1% of likely voters do not have an opinion when you ask them who they would vote for if the election were held today. 1%, the undecideds. but everybody wants them. nobody has them. so who are these coveted few? lynn knows. she's a political science professor at ucla and she is analyzing all these voters for this upcoming book it's called "the gamble" about the 2012 election. lynn, welcome. i'm fascinated by who these people are. you look at the calendar, 33 days to go here until the election. are they undecided because they really are just absolutely torn over who to vote for? or do they just not follow

politics period? >> it's a great question. and i think people mistakenly believe that they're just torn. they're right at the middle. and one more piece of information is all they need to make up their mind when in fact the latter is true, they're not interested in politics and may not have real positions on issues they care about. >> you call them low information voters. here's another 40% according to this poll found that 40% could identify john boehner as speaker of the house. i do want to move on because in terms of the specificity that groups can really get down to in terms of who these voters, these undecideds are, this is from bloomberg business week, they say the high turnout swing voters tend to be, i'm quoting this article, drink diet free pepsi, watch turner classic movies, that's a good thing, and

watch the office. how do you get down to those kind of specifics? do you do that? >> well, that's not typically something that we would do in writing a book, an academic book that is sort of engaging politics at a popular level. what those guys are doing is segmenting the electorate looking for niches. and, you know, they're really putting a spin on this set of undecided voters that probably is painting with a pretty wide brush. >> okay. okay. >> yeah. >> let me just get your take then because i know you've written about this. last night a number of the topical sections in the debate, the economy, of the undecideds who were watching, how do they feel about president obama's handling of the economy? >> well, this is a great example of, you know, the heart of this set of people. so do you approve or disapprove of barack obama's handling of the economy over the last year? a quarter, nearly a quarter of undecided voters will say that they don't know.

they cannot even say they approve or disapprove of the way the president's handled the economy. and the most important thing is that the number of people who will say that among decided voters is much lower, it's about 4%. so they're not engaged. >> so then, i guess of the people who some of whom are not engaged, will they ultimately make up their minds? is this as i like to call it a game time decision once they get to that voting booth? how does this work on november 6th for them? >> well, another common myth is they're all independents. we use those two words synonymously, independent and undecided. not true. a lot of them have party identifications. so just like everyone else at the end of the day they're going to vote their party. beyond that many of them will stay home. but the rest of them will pay a lot of attention to how this race is trending in the last couple of days. >> so they will pay attention even if it's the very, very end. lynn vavreck from ucla, thank you. >> you're welcome.

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to go the distance with you. call now to request your free decision guide. four people are dead, 31 sick from fungal meningitis. what is that? it's the inflammation of the lining of the brain and spinal cord. the illness has now hit six states. elizabeth cohen pointed out to me one positive aspect of this deadly outbreak. what is it that's making people sick? >> the first thing i want to say is people are not spreading this to each other. this is not contagious. >> that's a good thing. >> the bad thing that's happened here is apparently there was some medicine where fungus got into it, it got contaminated. this was the kind of medicine, a steroid injected right into people's spines. so they were injecting fungus right into people's spines.

they were injecting it right into the central nervous system makes it even tougher. >> what are they doing about it? >> they have to identify it. if a perfectly healthy person says i have a headache and feel nauseous, you don't think fun gal meningitis. they can give them iv medications, they have to be in the hospital for that. these people often get very, very sick. some of these people are critically ill, some have already died. it takes a long time to get over this. and the mortality rate, i mean, we don't know an exact number, but it unfortunately has a relatively high mortality rate. very dangerous disease. >> several people have died. >> yeah. four people have died. >> elizabeth cohen, thank you. also developing this hour, an fbi team finally examined what is left of the u.s. consulate in libya today. you know this comes more than three weeks after that attack that killed four americans including u.s. ambassador chris